John and Charles discuss the complex roots of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), tracing it back through the Latter Rain movement and exposing its deep ties to authoritarian frameworks laid in the 1940s. They examine the influential role of John Wimber and the Vineyard Movement in uniting various strands of Latter Rain theology—particularly through Wimber’s associations with the Shepherding Movement, the Kansas City Prophets, and figures like Paul Cain. The episode emphasizes how key Latter Rain doctrines, such as five-fold ministry and the Manifested Sons of God, re-emerged in modified forms under Wimber’s leadership, setting the stage for what C. Peter Wagner later named the NAR. Despite reform efforts late in Wimber’s life, Charles and John argue that the foundational control structures remained intact and dangerous.
The conversation repeatedly returns to the danger of reforming a toxic system without changing its core foundations. Charles warns that removing a central figure like Branham while preserving the underlying authoritarian dynamics leaves people vulnerable to re-victimization in sister movements. Wimber’s role is critically examined—not only for promoting dangerous doctrines but for platforming problematic figures like Cain, who brought radical Latter Rain teachings into the mainstream. Both hosts stress the importance of recognizing loaded language and historical continuity to avoid falling into rebranded expressions of the same high-control systems.
00:00 Introduction
01:14 Origins of the New Apostolic Reformation
02:46 Complex legacy of John Wimber
04:03 Why examining Latter Rain branches matters
05:04 The three senior branches of Latter Rain
07:14 Early influence on the Jesus People Movement
08:46 Birth of the Third Wave of Pentecostalism
10:02 Doctrines merging inside the Vineyard Movement
11:08 What makes a cult: story of a Branhamite pastor
12:56 Cult structure without a central figure
14:54 The foundation beneath modern churches
16:26 Subtracting William Branham still leaves the system
17:46 Why “reformation” isn’t always safe
19:04 Comparing Vineyard splits with Message splits
20:11 Wimber’s friendship with Shepherding leaders
22:00 Cross-pollination of authoritarian teachings
23:29 Deliverance teachings and loaded language
24:52 Joel’s Army and coded speech in revival culture
26:53 Signs and wonders versus Jesus’ message
31:02 Wimber’s legacy and complicity
33:28 Breakdown of what the audience was really absorbing
35:03 Clip preview: altered states and authority
37:11 Response to the clip and disturbing implications
38:01 Attempts to control the historical narrative
39:40 Patterns repeating from Branham to present
41:00 Doctrines can change but the danger remains
43:02 Language hijacking and parallel definitions
44:02 Kansas City Prophets join Vineyard
45:44 Paul Cain’s promotion and influence
47:06 Traveling evangelists and spread of teachings
48:02 Final destination metaphor for false reform
49:08 Attempts to keep th
